Good overview of Indians and Indian-Americans for Americans.
One quibble though. You mention the Cisco case, which was certainly the first of its kind. But you don't mention that the suit was dismissed and in fact, the California Civil Rights Department was penalized by the courts for pursuing the case because it was meritless.
In my view, the case is better understood as Americans trying to fit the idea of caste into their familiar domestic categories and failing rather badly at it. For some of the same reasons as you go through in the article.
Yes, but this piece was not about that one issue, so left our going into a lot of detail on California and Cisco. Perhaps I’ll write something about it another time.
You used the Cisco case to support your claim that caste discrimination is salient in the Indian American community. Therefore the fact that the case turned out to be meritless enough to receive a rebuke by the court is not some small detail that you can omit without changing the thrust of your argument. It undermines your argument, along with the next one about "Gandhian" methods being practiced in America. A hunger fast in pursuit of untruth can hardly be described as Gandhian.
Moreover, as most discrimination lawsuits go, the outcomes and their merit really depends on what really happened, how the courts perceive it, the nature of laws around the issue (or the lack of them), and other factors. Not even lawsuits about gender or race discrimination, which have a well established history in the US are that easily decided.
The points made by the author are much deeper and deserve far more consideration. The Cisco lawsuit is a tip of the iceberg, not the basis of caste in the United States. You have rightly noted that the idea of caste fitting into familiar domestic categories is complicated and not without its issues. However, it should also be noted that the rise of legislative approaches came after a longer movement within companies and universities to address the issue, which they failed or refused to do. A legal perspective on this topic is here: https://harvardlawreview.org/forum/vol-134/title-vii-and-caste-discrimination/
Super piece, Shruti… very important for Indians and Americans to understand the background of what may be future presidents of USA from both sides of the political spectrum
What a fascinating essay. Very informative. Thank you.
"The third group, tech workers from India... Unlike the early movers, who were medical doctors and PhDs, this most recent immigrant wave mostly had master’s degrees..."
That was (at least partly) due to refused visas for medical doctors - on the grounds that they were potential immigrants.
Even as a post-post-graduate subspecialist, I was refused entry to train for even 6 months in a rare branch - on this ground.
So... "Still, they had fewer numbers with professional and doctorate degrees that defined the Early Movers generation"
Without such restrictions, we might be seeing a different mix today.
The ‘caste’ background laid out paints a picture with a broad brush - painting communities with a single stroke when a few enjoyed privilege. This leads to incorrect perception for other people of same communities.
Thank you for this extensive, informative write-up that I am going to share widely.
May I take the liberty of pointing out a less-talked about, but vitally important distinction between Kamala Harris’ background and the background of others featured in your article?
Kamala Harris was brought up by a progressive mother who married a man not of her own caste, race, background and nationality. She came as an unmarried student and, I imagine, stepped out of Indians’ usual social circle. She wasn’t just another science nerd with career and social mobility aspirations, but, as you too have pointed out, became involved in civil rights questions. She married out of the usual insular Brahmin community as early as in the mid-twentieth century. How often do we see Indian elites marrying outside of their class/community/comfort/familiar circles? Even today, how often do we see educated, elite Indians and Indian Americans and other Indians in the diaspora marry into a black family and community? Interracial marriages, for the Indian community, more often means marrying white or Jewish. Some Indian conservatives (and quite a few skin-deep “liberals”) go as far as saying (or behaving or believing, if they won’t say it out loud) as if those are the only interracial marriages that matter.
In this context and socioeconomic environment, Kamala Harris’ mother stood tall on her own. And at some point she also became a single mother, but continued to raise her daughters among, and together with, the progressive black community of America and also in Canada.
All of this sets Kamala Harris apart from others like Vivek Ramaswamy, Usha Vance, Nikki Haley. This is worth noting at least among Indians and Indians in the diaspora who need to understand how insular and claustrophobic Brahmin and elite Indian socialization can be.
My husband pointed out how Kamala Harris described her upbringing as “in a middle-class family”, while Usha Vance described her upbringing as “in a middle-class community.” Subtle may be the difference in words, but the social, psychological, psychosocial (?) opportunities and experiences may have been vastly different in these two women who belong to age- and period-cohorts that are approximately two decades apart.
Oh and rich kids in India whose parents went to IIT, don't want to study for the IIT JEE. They come to top colleges to America for undergrad, having gone to the right high schools in India and hired the right counselors to create their resume.
Great piece…obviously a complicated topic, but you have done great justice in terms of opening the thinking vehicle of most mature humans…My comments on some others who responded are meant to be tongue-in-cheek😀😀😀
Fascinating. Thank you for writing this. I’ve passed this along to a close friend to get his input on it, and find out if he feels there is any bias/prejudice I should be aware of (nothing personal, just something I always do for perspective on things like this, especially before I share/recommend them to others). He is 2nd gen, family from Punjab, so I’m curious to hear his perspective.
That said, the piece is extremely educational, even for an American who already knew a little about the caste system, but only has a fairly superficial knowledge of it. I appreciate the time and effort that went into explaining this. Would love to learn more. In fact, I am concerned that as this sort of cultural info becomes more widely known, many people will misunderstand it and use it to create further divisions in the US, rather than foster understanding. I also worry that this could create more “they are invading us” demagoguing on the right, and that cultural influence building efforts (the “Indian Auntie Network” as I’ve heard it described, for example), could cause tensions among reactionary groups who will (wrongly) perceive and frame it as some sort of coordinated “war” against not only white ppl but also other minorities. These are the type of thorny topics that could spawn “culture war” type reactionary responses, and talking through them in a healthy and open way is, IMO, the only way to try to avoid that. The more we can all learn, the better. Thank you again for sharing. Gained a follower.
Sorry for the long comment, lol. Didn’t intend for it to turn into stream of consciousness typing, but that’s what thought provoking writing does sometimes, so please take it as a compliment. :-)
Just read it real quick. We can dive into it later, but it’s mostly accurate in its descriptions and facts.
In terms of interpretation, I think the connection between privilege (being from the educated Brahmin caste) and success is an easy one to make. I like that it included the Patel Motel Cartel example, but there are more historical factors at play (India’s independence and bringing wandering tribes into a civilization of law and order, for example) that would help her thesis, but would be too broad of a scope for this piece.
One thing she conveniently left out was the anti-Muslim mindset of most older Hindus. Which goes back thousands of years. And which a lot of Indians unite with on the right. It’s a big single issue trigger.
The early Indian migrant,s as you've noted, were often children of higher castes and privileged backgrounds in India which is why they often were able to travel to the US (or the UK, Canada etc...) because they had elite educational opportunities. Having said that, many non-brahmin castes, like the Patels that you mention, also emigrated and became very successful without elite educational backgrounds (doctors, engineers, professors) as well.
A 1939 issue of Fortune I read mentioned that there were several hundred Hindus living in New York City at the time as an indication of the city's diversity. I often wondered about them. Were they in the shipping trade or perhaps diplomatic factors? Were they sailors who settled? Had they come for the colleges? Given the restrictive immigration laws of the time, I imagine there were some fascinating stories.
I think it is unfair to bring caste into the discussion. The so-called upper-caste Indian ancestors of these American trailblazers did not do anything oppressive, immoral, unethical, or illegal. Nobody handed anything to them or to their American children. Everything was achieved through dedication, perseverance, sacrifice, delayed gratification, and hard work.
In my book, "Radical Spirits," I tell the heartbreaking story of the first Indian woman doctor, Dr. Anandi-bai Joshee. During the 1880s, she pursued an education in America, going against the religious orthodoxy of her time. Yes, she was Brahmin by birth; but that did not grant her any special concessions or opportunities.
Ms. Rajagopalan, if you were around in her time, would you have tried to discount her achievement because of her Brahmin birth? I sure hope not.
Ms. Rajagopalan, you brought up caste as a determining factor in the success of these high-achieving Indian-Americans. You used innuendo to cast their success as somehow less than wholesome and not earned fair and square. So, how about you come clean about your own background? Your last name suggests some Brahmin affiliation, so I imagine you have some measure of similar privilege as well.
My point is only this: Each one of us has some gifts and some challenges. The question that matters is: how did we use those immutable circumstances? Did we try to be better, become better, help others be/become better? Or did we just try to pull others down or squander those opportunities on hedonistic pursuits?
I invite every reader to apply this standard to all the individuals highlighted in this post and draw their own conclusions.
You’re reading too much into this, and seeing innuendo where there is none. Most high caste high achievers, especially those who immigrated to the US, had to work very hard to achieve what they did. Noting the benefits they received from a high-cultural-capital background does not take away from that.
A comprehensive, thoughtful, and an accurate first of its kind essay as many downplay or refused to accept let alone write about emigrated caste privilege that plays out in every aspect of Indian immigrant life in the US. Often my friends ask or compliment: you Indians are so smart and I make it a point to explain that it is the caste privilege that has afforded for their rise to the top. And as well described in this essay when you look at those who come with the economic and social capital we are also looking at 15.75% of right tail end of the IQ distribution of a population of 1.4 Billion.
My own experience, was looking for funding sources for my research project on child wellbeing and I got a feedback from a Jewish doctor who said that the funding source found my last name was not Brahmin. This is in west coast, sigh!
Also Usha Vance was a Gates scholar whose cumulative privilege is no comparison to a student from low income family.. that “meritocracy” debate we see play out in our country.
In other words, a US institutional funder refused to find you because you were not Brahmin? I have trouble wrapping my head around that. Is it possible there was a misunderstanding?
It was not a granting institution but it was a group of Indian doctors who my Jewish mentor thought might offer initial seed grant to do a much needed study of wellbeing of children from low income, marginalized, and rural communities. I was trying to find various avenues of funding as a non profit director.
Good overview of Indians and Indian-Americans for Americans.
One quibble though. You mention the Cisco case, which was certainly the first of its kind. But you don't mention that the suit was dismissed and in fact, the California Civil Rights Department was penalized by the courts for pursuing the case because it was meritless.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/international/us-court-penalises-california-state-department-in-caste-discrimination-lawsuit/article68310663.ece
In my view, the case is better understood as Americans trying to fit the idea of caste into their familiar domestic categories and failing rather badly at it. For some of the same reasons as you go through in the article.
Yes, but this piece was not about that one issue, so left our going into a lot of detail on California and Cisco. Perhaps I’ll write something about it another time.
You used the Cisco case to support your claim that caste discrimination is salient in the Indian American community. Therefore the fact that the case turned out to be meritless enough to receive a rebuke by the court is not some small detail that you can omit without changing the thrust of your argument. It undermines your argument, along with the next one about "Gandhian" methods being practiced in America. A hunger fast in pursuit of untruth can hardly be described as Gandhian.
I look forward to your take on the Cisco case.
*omission
The lawsuit has not been dismissed. There has been a widespread Hindu nationalist pushback against it and any conversation on caste. The lawsuit remains, only the case against the engineers has been dropped: https://apnews.com/article/cisco-caste-discrimination-lawsuit-california-a82cf1b775217bd3cabca24be89c3bf8
Moreover, as most discrimination lawsuits go, the outcomes and their merit really depends on what really happened, how the courts perceive it, the nature of laws around the issue (or the lack of them), and other factors. Not even lawsuits about gender or race discrimination, which have a well established history in the US are that easily decided.
The points made by the author are much deeper and deserve far more consideration. The Cisco lawsuit is a tip of the iceberg, not the basis of caste in the United States. You have rightly noted that the idea of caste fitting into familiar domestic categories is complicated and not without its issues. However, it should also be noted that the rise of legislative approaches came after a longer movement within companies and universities to address the issue, which they failed or refused to do. A legal perspective on this topic is here: https://harvardlawreview.org/forum/vol-134/title-vii-and-caste-discrimination/
Super piece, Shruti… very important for Indians and Americans to understand the background of what may be future presidents of USA from both sides of the political spectrum
What a fascinating essay. Very informative. Thank you.
"The third group, tech workers from India... Unlike the early movers, who were medical doctors and PhDs, this most recent immigrant wave mostly had master’s degrees..."
That was (at least partly) due to refused visas for medical doctors - on the grounds that they were potential immigrants.
Even as a post-post-graduate subspecialist, I was refused entry to train for even 6 months in a rare branch - on this ground.
So... "Still, they had fewer numbers with professional and doctorate degrees that defined the Early Movers generation"
Without such restrictions, we might be seeing a different mix today.
The ‘caste’ background laid out paints a picture with a broad brush - painting communities with a single stroke when a few enjoyed privilege. This leads to incorrect perception for other people of same communities.
Also, the article smells of author’s bias to me.
Thank you for this extensive, informative write-up that I am going to share widely.
May I take the liberty of pointing out a less-talked about, but vitally important distinction between Kamala Harris’ background and the background of others featured in your article?
Kamala Harris was brought up by a progressive mother who married a man not of her own caste, race, background and nationality. She came as an unmarried student and, I imagine, stepped out of Indians’ usual social circle. She wasn’t just another science nerd with career and social mobility aspirations, but, as you too have pointed out, became involved in civil rights questions. She married out of the usual insular Brahmin community as early as in the mid-twentieth century. How often do we see Indian elites marrying outside of their class/community/comfort/familiar circles? Even today, how often do we see educated, elite Indians and Indian Americans and other Indians in the diaspora marry into a black family and community? Interracial marriages, for the Indian community, more often means marrying white or Jewish. Some Indian conservatives (and quite a few skin-deep “liberals”) go as far as saying (or behaving or believing, if they won’t say it out loud) as if those are the only interracial marriages that matter.
In this context and socioeconomic environment, Kamala Harris’ mother stood tall on her own. And at some point she also became a single mother, but continued to raise her daughters among, and together with, the progressive black community of America and also in Canada.
All of this sets Kamala Harris apart from others like Vivek Ramaswamy, Usha Vance, Nikki Haley. This is worth noting at least among Indians and Indians in the diaspora who need to understand how insular and claustrophobic Brahmin and elite Indian socialization can be.
My husband pointed out how Kamala Harris described her upbringing as “in a middle-class family”, while Usha Vance described her upbringing as “in a middle-class community.” Subtle may be the difference in words, but the social, psychological, psychosocial (?) opportunities and experiences may have been vastly different in these two women who belong to age- and period-cohorts that are approximately two decades apart.
I actually write about this in a previous piece here https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2020-08-16/kamala-harris-is-half-indian-and-all-american
Thank you. Will read.
Lots of people who got into IIT are not "privileged". In fact, it allows brilliant (at math) poor kids a way to get into the big leagues.
This article seems shallow. One good point though is Christians, Muslims and Sikhs have caste too, in India. Many don't know that.
Oh and rich kids in India whose parents went to IIT, don't want to study for the IIT JEE. They come to top colleges to America for undergrad, having gone to the right high schools in India and hired the right counselors to create their resume.
Great educative article, Thank you
Thank you for writing this.
Great piece…obviously a complicated topic, but you have done great justice in terms of opening the thinking vehicle of most mature humans…My comments on some others who responded are meant to be tongue-in-cheek😀😀😀
Fascinating. Thank you for writing this. I’ve passed this along to a close friend to get his input on it, and find out if he feels there is any bias/prejudice I should be aware of (nothing personal, just something I always do for perspective on things like this, especially before I share/recommend them to others). He is 2nd gen, family from Punjab, so I’m curious to hear his perspective.
That said, the piece is extremely educational, even for an American who already knew a little about the caste system, but only has a fairly superficial knowledge of it. I appreciate the time and effort that went into explaining this. Would love to learn more. In fact, I am concerned that as this sort of cultural info becomes more widely known, many people will misunderstand it and use it to create further divisions in the US, rather than foster understanding. I also worry that this could create more “they are invading us” demagoguing on the right, and that cultural influence building efforts (the “Indian Auntie Network” as I’ve heard it described, for example), could cause tensions among reactionary groups who will (wrongly) perceive and frame it as some sort of coordinated “war” against not only white ppl but also other minorities. These are the type of thorny topics that could spawn “culture war” type reactionary responses, and talking through them in a healthy and open way is, IMO, the only way to try to avoid that. The more we can all learn, the better. Thank you again for sharing. Gained a follower.
Sorry for the long comment, lol. Didn’t intend for it to turn into stream of consciousness typing, but that’s what thought provoking writing does sometimes, so please take it as a compliment. :-)
My friend’s response:
Just read it real quick. We can dive into it later, but it’s mostly accurate in its descriptions and facts.
In terms of interpretation, I think the connection between privilege (being from the educated Brahmin caste) and success is an easy one to make. I like that it included the Patel Motel Cartel example, but there are more historical factors at play (India’s independence and bringing wandering tribes into a civilization of law and order, for example) that would help her thesis, but would be too broad of a scope for this piece.
One thing she conveniently left out was the anti-Muslim mindset of most older Hindus. Which goes back thousands of years. And which a lot of Indians unite with on the right. It’s a big single issue trigger.
The early Indian migrant,s as you've noted, were often children of higher castes and privileged backgrounds in India which is why they often were able to travel to the US (or the UK, Canada etc...) because they had elite educational opportunities. Having said that, many non-brahmin castes, like the Patels that you mention, also emigrated and became very successful without elite educational backgrounds (doctors, engineers, professors) as well.
A 1939 issue of Fortune I read mentioned that there were several hundred Hindus living in New York City at the time as an indication of the city's diversity. I often wondered about them. Were they in the shipping trade or perhaps diplomatic factors? Were they sailors who settled? Had they come for the colleges? Given the restrictive immigration laws of the time, I imagine there were some fascinating stories.
Super interesting and illuminating! Thank you for writing.
So informative. Thank you!
Thanks for writing it with so many references to explore .
I think it is unfair to bring caste into the discussion. The so-called upper-caste Indian ancestors of these American trailblazers did not do anything oppressive, immoral, unethical, or illegal. Nobody handed anything to them or to their American children. Everything was achieved through dedication, perseverance, sacrifice, delayed gratification, and hard work.
In my book, "Radical Spirits," I tell the heartbreaking story of the first Indian woman doctor, Dr. Anandi-bai Joshee. During the 1880s, she pursued an education in America, going against the religious orthodoxy of her time. Yes, she was Brahmin by birth; but that did not grant her any special concessions or opportunities.
Ms. Rajagopalan, if you were around in her time, would you have tried to discount her achievement because of her Brahmin birth? I sure hope not.
Ms. Rajagopalan, you brought up caste as a determining factor in the success of these high-achieving Indian-Americans. You used innuendo to cast their success as somehow less than wholesome and not earned fair and square. So, how about you come clean about your own background? Your last name suggests some Brahmin affiliation, so I imagine you have some measure of similar privilege as well.
My point is only this: Each one of us has some gifts and some challenges. The question that matters is: how did we use those immutable circumstances? Did we try to be better, become better, help others be/become better? Or did we just try to pull others down or squander those opportunities on hedonistic pursuits?
I invite every reader to apply this standard to all the individuals highlighted in this post and draw their own conclusions.
Love the sound of your book. A great gift for a young med school student I know. I'm about to buy it.
You’re reading too much into this, and seeing innuendo where there is none. Most high caste high achievers, especially those who immigrated to the US, had to work very hard to achieve what they did. Noting the benefits they received from a high-cultural-capital background does not take away from that.
A comprehensive, thoughtful, and an accurate first of its kind essay as many downplay or refused to accept let alone write about emigrated caste privilege that plays out in every aspect of Indian immigrant life in the US. Often my friends ask or compliment: you Indians are so smart and I make it a point to explain that it is the caste privilege that has afforded for their rise to the top. And as well described in this essay when you look at those who come with the economic and social capital we are also looking at 15.75% of right tail end of the IQ distribution of a population of 1.4 Billion.
My own experience, was looking for funding sources for my research project on child wellbeing and I got a feedback from a Jewish doctor who said that the funding source found my last name was not Brahmin. This is in west coast, sigh!
Also Usha Vance was a Gates scholar whose cumulative privilege is no comparison to a student from low income family.. that “meritocracy” debate we see play out in our country.
I’m confused, was that a positive or a negative for the funder?? (Inappropriate either way)
It was negative. They thought my proposal was brilliant but not fund deserving.
In other words, a US institutional funder refused to find you because you were not Brahmin? I have trouble wrapping my head around that. Is it possible there was a misunderstanding?
It was not a granting institution but it was a group of Indian doctors who my Jewish mentor thought might offer initial seed grant to do a much needed study of wellbeing of children from low income, marginalized, and rural communities. I was trying to find various avenues of funding as a non profit director.
I’m so sorry , that discrimination is unconscionable
Me too.. I have still not given up my dream, finding creative ways to do the study.